Tag Archives: pulmonary

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Long Covid imaging

In the last Long Covid talk that I attended and wrote about (here: Pulmonary Manifestations of Long Covid), the pulmonologist and intensivist says that one problem with Long Covid is that we do not have imaging that can “see” it.

That is, the chest x-ray looks normal, the echocardiogram may look normal (heart ultrasound), the chest CT scan may look normal, a brain CT or MRI may look normal, but the patient may still be tachycardic, feel exhausted, feel brain fog and have multiple other symptoms.

That pulmonologist listed five of the top mechanisms that are prolonged in the immune system. Most of the scientists and physicians are framing this as “immune system dysfunction”. I am not. I am framing it as “you were really really sick and your immune system is still on high alert and trying to protect you so you can recover”. Now wait, you say, how could chronic fatigue like symptoms protect me? Well, if you are exhausted, you can’t go to work and you’ll stay quiet at home most of the time and less exposure chance. But what about brain fog? Again, this will slow your interaction with other people and force you to rest and heal. But, you say, I don’t like it. Well, yeah. Patience. We call grumpy patients that are recovering “convalescents”. It is a good sign when they are grumpy and over it and just want to be better. That doesn’t mean I can make myself or anyone else heal faster.

The pulmonologist says that the best test is the six minute walk test. This is usually done by a respiratory therapist. The person walks in a circle for six minutes wearing a pulse ox, with the respiratory therapist doing regular checks. This distinguishes between the people who have primarily a lung issue from all the other issues. If the person is tachycardic (fast heart rate) but not hypoxic (oxygen level dropping), then it’s not primarily lungs though blood clots to the lungs sometimes have to be ruled out. One of the mechanisms in the immune system is microclots and an increased risk of blood clots. That can mean heart attack, stroke, or pulmonary embolus, a clot in the lungs. The microclots are suspected of causing some of the muscle fatigue and exercise intolerance, by clogging capillaries and reducing oxygen flow to muscle cells. Muscle cells do not like this at all.

I have done my own quick walk test with patients since 2003, when I had terrible influenza. About a week after my influenza started, with the temperature of 104 and heart rate at 100 at rest and 135 walking, my temperature came down. However, the fast heart rate continued. Normal heart rate is 70-100 and 135 walking will make you feel exhausted. I lay on the couch and could barely make my kids dinner for two months. It resolved then. I read a book about influenza and thought that I had “influenza viral pneumonia” where there is lung tissue swelling, reducing the air spaces, after influenza.

My quick walk test in clinic is to check a sitting oxygen level and heart rate and then have the person walk. I would have them walk up and down a short hall three times then sit down. When they sat, I watched the pulse oximeter recovery. Some people would jump from a resting heart rate of 62 to a walking heart rate of over 100, say 120. Their oxygen level could stay normal or it could drop. If they dropped below 88, I would get home oxygen and forbid them to return to work. If their oxygen level held, then they needed to rest until their walking heart rate stayed under 100 and they were no longer exhausted by gentle or normal activity. If they return to work with a walking heart rate of 120, they will be exhausted and are more likely to get a secondary pneumonia or have other problems. The heart does not like to run at 120 all the time. You can see why a person who already has some coronary artery blockage would be more likely to have a heart attack if they get pneumonia from influenza or Covid-19.

The conferences I am attending are talking about “targets” in the immune system. That is, new drugs. I think the science is wonderful and amazing, but I also think we need to step back and say, this is a really really bad infection and some people need a lot of support and reassurance and time to heal. Reassure them that even though they have not yet returned to normal, the immune system is working hard to protect them from other infections and it is saying very very loudly that they need to rest. Rest, recuperate and trust the immune system. Some things need immediate treatment, especially blood clots, heart attacks and strokes, but once those are ruled out, we need to support people through their convalescence and healing.

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The photograph is from April 2021, a few days after I was put on oxygen. A selfie.

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Pulmonary Manifestations of Long Covid

Today’s Zoom lecture was about pulmonary manifestations of Long Covid, and this is from the Schmidt Initiative for Long Covid Global ECHO Webinar Series, out of the U of New Mexico.

First of all, the talk is brilliant. The speaker is Lekshmi Santhosh, MD, MAEd, Asso Prof Med, Pulm Critical Care Med, UCSF, Intensive Care.

Two things to start with: she stressed the six minute walk test for patients, to distinguish oxygen desaturation (dropping) from the people who have terrible tachycardia (fast heart rate) only. The oxygen drop indicates that the person needs lung studies and may need oxygen, while tachycardia alone means either a heart problem, chronic fatigue/ME pattern or dysautonomia, where the heart goes fast when the person sits or stands up. Her point was that it’s a simple test and that Long Covid presents in multiple different patterns.

The second point is that there are least five main mechanisms that Long Covid can mess us up and people can have one or many. There is a review article in Nature last month (I need a copy!) and it talks about these five: immune system problems, gut microbiome problems, autoimmune responses, blood clotting/microclotting/endothelial problems and dysfunctional neurological signalling. SO: this is a MESS. She says that patient care needs to be individualized depending on which mechanism(s) are predominant and it can be more than one. This Covid-19 is a hella bad virus.

So: “The underlying biological mechanism may not be the same in each patient.” That is the understatement of the year.

She reiterates that the current diagnostic criteria, subject to change, is symptoms that last longer than 12 weeks after Covid-19 and two months past that. She states that the symptoms can wax and wane and that we need to listen to and believe patients.

In JAMA this month, there is an article that uses big data to find which symptoms are more associated with Long Covid, and lists 13 symptoms. Smell/taste tops the list but fatigue is there too. However, this is not a list for diagnosis, it’s a study list.

She also is careful to say that the treatment for the pulmonary manifestations is not the same as the people with the pattern that resembles chronic fatigue syndrome/ME. The pulmonary people can build exercise tolerance, but the CFS/ME folks need a different regimen, with pacing and energy conservation. That sounds like a subtle difference. I had both though my CFS/ME is weird. It does not put me in bed, I just can get really tired and need to sleep. It’s a bit invisible. People see me dance and would not guess that I have CFS/ME. All relative to previous function and energy, right?

For lung manifestations, she lists a pyramid, with the more rare things at the bottom. As follows:

  1. persistent dyspnea (shortness of breath)
  2. post viral reactive airways disease (asthma that can resolve from irritated pissed off lung tissue)
  3. deconditioning. She says that the isolation and quarantine with some people in very small rooms, leads to terrible deconditioning in some folks. They can build up, especially with supervised exercise with pulmonary rehabilitation and/or physical therapy. It is scary to exercise when you are short of breath and the supervision really helps, with limits on how much you should push, or encouragement to push.
  4. organizing pneumonia. This is rare and responds to steroids. Otherwise steroids are not good for the muscles in Long Covid, with the exception of inhaled steroids for the asthmatics and post viral reactive airways.
  5. post ARDS fibrosis: fibrosis is fibrous scarring that can form in the lungs. Anyone who has any terrible pneumonia and is in the ICU and intubated and on a ventilator can get this. Not everyone gets it, thankfully. ARDS is Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome. Luckily the fibrosis is rare and it turns out that in some people it improves with time, like years. She does not recommend the pulmonary fibrosis medicines right now. There are many causes of pulmonary fibrosis besides infection.
  6. PVD: peripheral vascular disease. Covid-19 increases clotting, so we have to look for both clots and for disease in arteries, which could be lungs, brain, heart, anywhere in the body.

She says DON’T assume that chest pain is from the lungs and don’t miss cardiovascular. That is, rule out a heart attack and pulmonary embolus first.

Other lung problems have to be kept in mind that are not caused by Covid-19. This list: Reflux associated cough, pleuritic pain, neuromuscular disease, vocal cord dysfunction, tracheal stenosis, tracheomalacia. Watch for those. She says that it is very very important to look at old chest x-rays and CT scans, because those can show previous signs of emphysema/COPD/asthma/fibrosis.

Testing: She puts the 6 minute walk test first. AFTER the thorough history and making sure there are no red flags for pulmonary embolism and heart attack. Those have to ruled out if there is any suspicion. Next: pulmonary function testing. If the DLCO is low, consider a chest CT. Consider TTE -TransThoracic Echocardiogram, to look at the heart. Labs: CBC (blood count), ESR, CRP, thyroid, +/-CPK.

She has diagnosed people who are sent to her with NOT Long Covid: they have metastatic lung cancer, metastatic prostate cancer, new pregnancy, hypersensitivity pneumonitis and many other things. She says, “Don’t assume it is Long Covid. Sometimes it isn’t.”

Now, this is all a formidable list of problems and this is JUST the lungs. Long Covid can affect every system in the body and every patient is different.

She also says that she has done more disability and accommodation paperwork in the last three years than in her entire career before that. That the US disability system is a horrid mess and that she has to talk to employers and insurers OFTEN to say that the person will get better faster and have less long term problems if she treats now and they have rest and return to work may need to be very gradual.

She approaches new patients by asking which symptoms are worst. She thinks about severity of the infection, vaccination status, previous/present other medical problems and habits that can contribute or worsen things (smoking, vaping, exposures). Her clinic is for Long Covid pulmonary, but now they have opened up a neurological branch. They use multiple other specialists as well.

Last quotation: “Until we elucidate the biology and have clinical trials, treatments are largely symptomatic.” So the basic science studies working on immune system, the gut microbiome, the clotting problems, are huge in figuring out what to do in clinical trials. This is a tremendously complex illness and three years into Covid-19, we are still trying to figure out the multiple mechanisms that cause Long Covid.

This was a very hopeful lecture from my standpoint, admitting that this is complex but that we are also working to sort out the mechanisms and work on treatments. She works hard at getting patient input and feedback as well.

Two links: A free PDF from Johns Hopkins on Bouncing Back from Covid. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/physical_medicine_rehabilitation/coronavirus-rehabilitation/_files/impact-of-covid-patient-recovery.pdf

The American Physical Therapy Association has articles as well: https://www.apta.org/patient-care/public-health-population-care/long-covid

Also here are webinar links:

SILC Global ECHO Webinar Series Resource Links June 28, 2023

Now, how will I use the Ragtag Daily Prompt riposte for this? I think I will just say again how important it is to listen to and believe our patients!

The photograph is from Marrowstone Island, East Beach. The shape in the driftwood is sort of lung shaped.

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Lungs, again

I saw the pulmonologist from Swedish Hospital last week and am still thinking about the visit.

My lung function on the pulmonary function tests did not change much from December. He gives me an inhaler, with a steroid and a long acting bronchodilator, two puffs twice a day. I use it for one day in December and promptly get Covid-19 mildly. I then ignored the inhaler until I talk to him in March. He says, “Use it for two months and we will see if your lungs improve.” I try it in March and get a cold, not Covid, within a day. I try it again in April and get a cold within two days. I then ignore the inhaler.

But at the end of March I start feeling a lot better and my fast twitch muscles start working again. I would get very tired and stiff when I use them. They are “back” but are very weak. I wanted to know if my lung testing improved too, but it didn’t. So what is going on here? I feel better but the lung studies are not better.

The pulmonologist says, “Well, the infections are probably coincidence.” Yeah, um, well, three for three. “But, if it’s not asthma, it could be bronchiectasis.” He asks when I did the methacholine test, negative, gold standard for asthma. I did it in 2014. Negative along with allergy testing.

I don’t know much about bronchiectasis. Mostly that it’s not asthma and not chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. It may be the garbage can that holds obstructive disorders that don’t fit either of those categories.

“Bronchiectasis means what?” I say. He says, “Usually there is a lot of coughing and mucous.” Nope. Well, I cough a lot with pneumonia and with colds if I don’t rest, but rarely cough anything up. “The test is a chest CT but we can’t do anything about it if you have it, so I don’t know if you want to do a CT.”

“If there’s nothing to do, then I don’t want one.” Because repeated CT scans increase cancer risk, way more so then an x-ray. I ask about work. “I still get really fatigued, and my muscles are recovering. If I am stronger at the end of the summer, I would think about work, but how would I protect my lungs?”

“Mask.” he says. “An N95 all the time would maybe help. We don’t really know.”

Ugh. We agree that I will see him in October. If my fatigue level stays where it is now, returning to work even half days is going to be too high risk, I think. I am liable to get pneumonia AGAIN and this time I might get stuck on oxygen. Or die, which I’d rather not right now.

I am reading about bronchiectasis. The Mayo Clinic doesn’t have an entry for it, though it has clinical trials and a special clinic. That would support it being a garbage can diagnosis. I am reading on Wikipedia, here, not my usual medical resource. Brochiectasis can particularly be caused by tuberculosis, mycobacterial illness. They distinguish cystic fibrosis bronchiectasis from non-cystic fibrosis bronchiectasis and other infections can cause it. Influenza, streptococcus, um, yeah, the infections I’ve had. I do not have cystic fibrosis or the alpha-1-antitrypsis disorder. And there is another disorder listed, a genetic one where the cilia don’t work right. Primary ciliary diskinesia. I don’t have that either, but my working diagnosis is PANS, with antibodies that screw up my cilia and fast twitch muscles. And that would put my lungs at risk for pneumonia.

So, says a friend, what do you need to take?

Nothing, I say. It means I have to keep stress down, be in a parasympathetic state instead of fight or flight sympathetic state, and stay the heck away from sick people. Oh, and mask on airplanes and probably avoid huge crowd things. Jazz Fest, big music festivals, riots, wars, etc. Exercise, eat right, don’t drink too much alcohol, don’t smoke anything, don’t do stupid things. Try not to get tuberculosis.

And still, I am doing well. The treatment for really bad bronchiectasis is lung transplant. I am still quite mild after four pneumonias and the kid illnesses and mononucleosis and colds and so forth. I do not cough all the time and am off oxygen. It’s looking less likely that I could return to work in person, though I don’t know about internet. It really depends on my energy level, what that does. Darn it. Uncertainty, isn’t it hella annoying? Oh, well, I am pretty used to it by now.

And that’s the lung news.

I can always hide in my tree house. But the food and water supply there is not so good.

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Long Covid and fatigue

Sometimes medical articles are SO IRRITATING! Like this:

Symptomatic Long COVID May Be Tied To Decreased Exercise Capacity On Cardiopulmonary Exercise Testing Up To Three Months After Initial SARS-COV-2 Infection

Healio (10/18, Buzby) reports a 38-study systematic review and meta-analysis “suggested with low confidence that symptomatic long COVID was associated with decreased exercise capacity on cardiopulmonary exercise testing up to 3 months after initial SARS-COV-2 infection.” According to the findings published in JAMA Network Open, “underlying mechanisms may include but are not limited to deconditioning, peripheral mechanisms, hyperventilation, chronotropic incompetence, preload failure and autonomic and endothelial dysfunction.”

Wouldn’t it be nice if they believed the patients?

Let’s break this down. What does it all mean? Ok, the “low confidence” irritates me because it implies that the physicians can’t believe the patients who say “hey, I am short of breath and have a fast heart rate and get really fatigued if I try to do anything!”

I have had my fourth bout of pneumonia with shortness of breath and tachycardia. This time, since I am older, I had hypoxia bad enough to need oxygen. This is the FIRST TIME that some physicians have actually believed me. They believed the pulse oximeter dropping down to 87% and below, with a heart rate in the 140s, but they did not believe me and some accused me of malingering, for the last 19 years. Can you tell that I am a little tiny bit annoyed? If my eyes shot lasers, there would be some dead local physicians. And I AM a local physician, disbelieved by my supposed peers.

Let us simplify this gobbdygook: “underlying mechanisms may include but are not limited to deconditioning, peripheral mechanisms, hyperventilation, chronotropic incompetence, preload failure and autonomic and endothelial dysfunction.” The way I think of it is that sometimes a pneumonia will cause lung tissue swelling. Ok, think of the air space in your lungs as a large balloon. Now the wall of the balloon swells inwards and suddenly there is half as much air space. Guess how your body takes up the slack? The heart goes faster and you have tachycardia. This is a very simple way to think about it. I have tested patients who complain of bad fatigue after an upper respiratory infection with a very simple walk test. 1. I test them at rest, heart rate and oxygen saturation. 2. I walk them up and down a short hallway three times. 3. I sit them back down, and watch the heart rate and oxygen saturation. I watch until they are back to their seated baseline.

A friend tested recently and his resting heart rate was 62. After walking, his heart rate is in the 90s. H does not have a pulse oximeter, but his oxygen level is probably fine. However, that is a big jump. He has had “a terrible cold” for 8 days. I would bet money that his heart rate normally doesn’t jump that much. He still needs recovery time and rest.

In clinic, I had people who were ok at rest but needed oxygen when they walked. We would get them oxygen. More often, they did not need oxygen, but they were tachycardic. When they walked, their heart rate would jump, over 100. Normal is 60-100 beats per minute. If they jumped 30 beats or jumped over 100, I would forbid them to return to work until their heart rate would stay under 100 when they walked. If they went back to work they would be exhausted, it would slow healing, and they might catch a second bacteria or virus and then they could die.

Patients did not need a pulse oximeter. I would teach them to take their own pulse. The heart rate is the number of beats in 60 seconds. I have trouble feeling my own wrist, so I take mine at my neck. It’s a bit trickier if someone has atrial fibrillation but the pulse oximeters aren’t very good with afib either.

When I have pneumonia, my resting heart rate went to 100 the first time and my walking heart rate was in the 140s. I had influenza and felt terrible. My physician and I were mystified. It was a full two months before my heart rate came down to normal. I was out of shape by then and had to build back up. If I tried to walk around with my heart at 140, I was exhausted very quickly and it also felt terrible. The body does NOT like a continuous fast heart rate and says “LIE DOWN” in a VERY FIRM LOUD VOICE. So, I lay down. Until I recovered. For a while I was not sure if I would recover, but I did. This time it was a year before I could go to part time oxygen.

The fatigue follows the heart rate. Tachycardia is not good for you long term. If the heart is making up for reduced air space in the lungs, it doesn’t make sense to slow the heart rate with drugs. You NEED the heart to make up for the lungs. You need to rest, too!

Blessings and peace you.

The photograph is Elwha, helping me knit socks. With the bad air from the fires and my still recovering lungs, I am staying indoors and knitting socks .

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forest fires and your lungs

Our air quality is still bad today. I got my first alarm on my cell phone for bad air quality yesterday: the first time in 18 years.

Here are some links regarding forest fire smoke and your lungs:

Forest fires and Respiratory Health Fact Sheet: here. This pdf has other links at the bottom.

Breathe: the lung association: here. A Canadian site. Good, short and clear.

American Lung Association: How wildfires affect our health.

Fire fighter health: US Forest Service. Effects of Smoke Exposure on Firefighter Health

The photograph is not a fire: it’s a sunset in Hawaii.